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    Débat sur les règles

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    [Grognard]_Brumaire
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Brumaire le Sam 29 Aoû 2015 - 15:52

    I think your core values are too different to find an agreement guys.

    Like in real life, fairness is not the biggest concern of everybody.
    Lancier and Hekko are using some very liberal assumptions to justify the tricks and updating Pascal's thought : "it was not possible to make fairness strong so mankind made strenght be right".
    Anyway, that only regards you, guys.

    However, you are all great historical fans.
    Why do you contest the need for historical accuracy?
    Don't you think this mod has been created to provide an experience which is closer to the reality than the one that the Vanilla proposed?


    Dernière édition par [Grognard]_Brumaire le Sam 29 Aoû 2015 - 21:05, édité 1 fois


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    [Grognard]_Liberalis
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Liberalis le Sam 29 Aoû 2015 - 16:33

    1. Basic rule is no gen sniping. BUT, if a general is suicidal enough to scout too far away from the main bulk of his army or better said, when a general starts to be used as a light cavalry, be it for pursuing a routing unit or in-melee, then you have the God-given right to slaughter the general unit.

    In my opinion this is a major deterrent in itself. If you're stupid enough to use your general as light cavalry, don't be surprised that people will pursue and kill your general. Simple.

    2. When an enemy is using "tricks", just step up and teach this bastard a lesson in-game. Don't lose temper or faith, and try to fuck him up with the tools you are given.
    Frankly, I'm not even pissed (anymore) when a guy charges my guns, though this happens rather rarely.

    Specifically, when a guy tries to run a cavalry unit through one of his own infantry units in order to get a couple of horses to break through and charge your artillery, try to anticipate and be prepared for such low skill tactics. If you defend your artillery unit with at least two well positioned infantry units on the sides while shooting some nasty canister cartridges, you lower the chances of the enemy horses to reach your guns.

    Broadly speaking, just as the bible (or any other religious book) tries to educate men, rules in NTW3 are a matter of teaching people how to behave.
    It's a constant.
    There will always be situations with people contesting this and that. The important thing is to educate.


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    [Grognard]_Melet
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Melet le Sam 29 Aoû 2015 - 18:14

    Hey ! On est sur le forum des Grognards ici ! Un peu de français svp !


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    Lancier
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par Lancier le Sam 29 Aoû 2015 - 20:55

    edit: Cosak read already and said on lordz anyway no need to post same on a clan forum.


    Dernière édition par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 22:15, édité 1 fois


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    [Grognard]_Cosak
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Cosak le Sam 29 Aoû 2015 - 21:13

    Really? Clicking 100 times to walk through an enemy unit is something happening randomly and cannot be prevented  Rolling Eyes

    Believe me, I am playing for long, and it's very easy not to do it.


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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par Lancier le Sam 29 Aoû 2015 - 21:37

    edit: Cosak read already and said on lordz anyway no need to post same on a clan forum.


    Dernière édition par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 22:15, édité 1 fois


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    Hekko
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par Hekko le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 14:06

    [Grognard]_Cosak a écrit:
    You are a smart guy, how come you don't understand my point? Even if one has never been robbed, it doesn't mean you can't be against robbery. Same here: I could see those tricks so many times, even in our infamous 3v3 (against the Poles). I wasn't the victim, but I still consider it idiotic.

    Alright, lets just pull the handbrakes for a moment. What is your issue with these behaviours? The inaccuracy or the power of them?

    You say it's robbery as if someone is being harmed by the behaviour, as if you are protesting the gameplay power of it. In which case you have to argue a completely different case than you are at the moment.

    A more apt comparison is that you dislike modern art, so you want to forbid everyone from hanging modern art in their homes.

    [Grognard]_Cosak a écrit:When Lordz released v3.5 with its slowly accelerating cav for the first time, all players were against in the beginning. Was it pompous from Lordz to impose that, or was it just a will to make battles more realistic?

    That's game design, it's a completely different sort of discussion altogether. As I have pointed out previously, if you really want to change that behaviour you can change it through the design.

    [Grognard]_Cosak a écrit:Thinking that no unit must cross an enemy unit is not pompous, it's just being aware that is against any warfare common sense. It's a pity NTW engine allows it (a glitch), but it's even worse players want to use it at all cost.

    Trying to impose your aesthetic preference on others is quite pompous, especially when you have the benefit of designing the game so that you can incentivise against that behaviour if you want to cull it.

    [Grognard]_Cosak a écrit:
    No, it can be done on the vanilla too.

    Of course, a lot of the stuff can be done in Vanilla, and there are a lot of restrictions on what can be changed and what cannot be changed, however, you can also change incentives which is how you could achieve the results you desire.

    [Grognard]_Cosak a écrit:
    Believe me, I am not the only Lordz who despises hardcore gaming tricks. And many new players on the mod are surprised NTW3 community uses more glitches than in the vanilla or WoW, and they give up quickly.

    I guess some Lordz may dislike some tricks, the same way I dislike some tactics. I don't go about pushing for the banning of these tactics though.

    [Grognard]_Cosak a écrit:That's exactly how Austrians protected their guns in Wagram, or Russian in Borodino, etc. Artillerymen even sometimes left their guns to hide behind dragoons, then came back after a threat was repelled.

    By sticking the cavalry straight ontop of the guns so that the ranks would be messed up, all while the gunners are happily inside the cavalry going about their business...

    In the same spirit I could claim that cavalry charges are a confusing affair from which it's quite possible for some cavalry men to emerge on the other side, and them subsequently going for the gunners.

    [Grognard]_Cosak a écrit:
    Legitimate cavalry charge? Walking through enemy dragoons?

    The charge was legitimate initially, it's once you stick your dragoons ontop of the battery that it turns into a click-through, so it's tit for tat really.

    [Grognard]_Brumaire a écrit:I think your core values are too different to find an agreement guys.

    Like in real life, fairness is not the biggest concern of everybody.
    Lancier and Hekko are using some very liberal assumptions to justify the tricks and updating Pascal's thought : "it was not possible to make fairness strong so mankind made strenght be right".
    Anyway, that only regards you, guys.

    However, you are all great historical fans.
    Why do you contest the need for historical accuracy?
    Don't you think this mod has been created to provide an experience which is closer to the reality than the one that the Vanilla proposed?

    It's just that you cannot make a claim about fairness. These things are equally open to both sides, therefore it's not unfair to use it. It may be unauthentic, but you cannot hold someone responsible for someone else voluntarily refusing to use some of the tools at his disposal.

    The historical accuracy is of course very important. Nonetheless, it's a balance. If you want the balance even further away you have HBs open to you, where even OoBs etc. are adapted to be accurate so that no one may choose a game-y army by choosing a cost-efficient army.
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    [Grognard]_Melet
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Melet le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 14:25

    [quote="Hekko"]
    [Grognard]_Cosak a écrit:
    It's just that you cannot make a claim about fairness. These things are equally open to both sides, therefore it's not unfair to use it. It may be unauthentic, but you cannot hold someone responsible for someone else voluntarily refusing to use some of the tools at his disposal.

    That's why we learn to know our opponents and then choose those we accept in our game .


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    [Grognard]_Cosak
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Cosak le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 14:55

    It's not about aesthetic. I hate camping even more than your tricks, but I would never think of a recommendation against it because it existed (a lot) in History. I am against the glitches you use and master because they just never occurred on a battlefield. Not because it's brilliant, but just because they just can't physically happen.

    NTW3 is far from perfect, and these nasty tricks are spoiling it.

    If you think I am using tricks spoiling historical accuracy and online battles, I'm open to discuss it.


    Dernière édition par [Grognard]_Cosak le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 15:12, édité 1 fois


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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 15:12

    edit: Cosak read already and said on lordz anyway no need to post same on a clan forum.


    Dernière édition par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 22:15, édité 1 fois


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    [Grognard]_Cosak
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Cosak le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 15:14

    Lancier, we couln't care less about Sigizmund's game style. If he cheated, you did well to crush him.

    He has never read or posted on this forum anyway.


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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par White- le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 15:16

    So you care for our game style but not his?
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 15:18

    edit: Cosak read already and said on lordz anyway no need to post same on a clan forum.


    Dernière édition par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 22:15, édité 1 fois


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    [Grognard]_Cosak
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Cosak le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 15:59

    White- a écrit:So you care for our game style but not his?

    I just meant I don't care what does one individual. He is part of the NTW3 community, and if his behaviour is disloyal then one or two fair-play recommendations could sort it out. Like with N, Grognards and BPA.

    I am not focusing on one battle or one individual. Sorry if I was unclear.


    If he keeps using his general in melee, I'll tell him for sure.


    Dernière édition par [Grognard]_Cosak le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 16:01, édité 1 fois


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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par White- le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 16:01

    How is it disloyal Cosak? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Simply because you do not like a tactic/strategy/style of play does not make it disloyal. Fair play recommendations would simply mislead new players as they will be victim to older players who use these tactics after they have been told not to use them.
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    [Grognard]_Cosak
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Cosak le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 16:06

    White- a écrit:How is it disloyal Cosak? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Simply because you do not like a tactic/strategy/style of play does not make it disloyal. Fair play recommendations would simply mislead new players as they will be victim to older players who use these tactics after they have been told not to use them.

    It's not about likings, but will to improve a tactical approach rather than hardcore gaming tricks. Read what I wrote above: I hate camping more than the crossing trick, but camping is an existing tactic, walking through enemy regiments isn't. You keep parrotting.

    Do you consider yourself, N and BPA as nasty liars? Using tricks you've been politely asked not to do? Do you snipe generals? No. Could you also not click 100 times to cross a unit? I think you can too.


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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 16:26

    edit: Cosak read already and said on lordz anyway no need to post same on a clan forum.


    Dernière édition par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 22:15, édité 1 fois


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    [Grognard]_Cosak
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Cosak le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 17:22

    To label some one "cheater", there must be rules or recommendations. For now there is only one rule about the gen sniping. Did Sigizmund sniped your general? No. Period. I also don't like when Lib puts his general in melee, I tell him each time he does  Razz

    If I can set up those recommendations, it would be forbidden to use one's general in melee. You have seen this very statement from me on Lordz forum, Lancier.

    Why would he stop if there's no recommendation against it? That's why I want them.


    Dernière édition par [Grognard]_Cosak le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 17:51, édité 1 fois


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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 17:47

    edit: Cosak read already and said on lordz anyway no need to post same on a clan forum.


    Dernière édition par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 22:14, édité 1 fois


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    [Grognard]_Cosak
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Cosak le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 18:45

    Lancier a écrit:before publishing your rules

    I didn't publish anything.
    It's not my rules, it's draft, it's for Lordz.
    It's not rules, it's recommendations.



    Lancier a écrit:. So if i call someone cheater i wouldnt win tourneys or battles with him

    I don't consider Sigizmund as a cheater. Sometimes I can also make mistakes with my gen (or cross one's unit). If I see he does that on purpose, I won't accept to team with him.

    Tournament:
    Round 1: versus Grognards, no problem
    Round 2: versus Templars, both our gens remained very far from action
    Round 3: versus N, his general was in the back of his own artillery and got charged
    Round 4 (final): versus Dragons, they were camping and we didn't charge anything

    So where's the problem?

    Most of NTW3 players are grown-ups. It's not hard to share complatints with someone. I did with Uxbridge or MAK, they accepted or rejected my remarks, no harm done. Discussions can be positive.

    You shouldn't see my suggestions as something oppressing, but an opportunity to have more strategic than click-fest battle. I obviously failed, but your venomous reaction was unexpected. My only goal was to enhance our battles, and we could have discussed their plausibility instead of these shenanigans.


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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 18:55

    edit: Cosak read already and said on lordz anyway no need to post same on a clan forum.


    Dernière édition par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 22:14, édité 1 fois


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    [Grognard]_Cosak
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Cosak le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 19:41

    Lancier a écrit:And also after that post in several you blamed us especially N and Bpa

    Where? I also named Grognards and LL... Uxbridge (from BPA) agreed with these issues (but didn't want rules either).


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    [Grognard]_Brumaire
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Brumaire le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 19:44

    So, if I understand well Hekko, you would accept and applaude an NTW3 gamer that would have hacked the game and boosted its statistics...

    Indeed, if I follow your thoughts, he would just use a tactics that everyone dislikes ! Razz

    That kind of biased darwinism just makes me think to the traders that regarded themselves as insiders and defended a "no rule market", a few years ago. Now, many of them are crying for some regulation against high frequency trading because they consider it's unfair... Rolling Eyes

    Anyway, I leave everyone with its awareness but it was my pleasure to point out some contradictions


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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 19:55

    edit: Cosak read already and said on lordz anyway no need to post same on a clan forum.


    Dernière édition par Lancier le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 22:14, édité 1 fois


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    [Grognard]_Cosak
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    Re: Débat sur les règles

    Message par [Grognard]_Cosak le Dim 30 Aoû 2015 - 20:07

    I should have indeed used "tricks users" rather than "cheaters". I was wrong.

    I apologize for that hasted use of hurtful words.


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